Interview: David Dubois

(Editor's Note: Many of our readers are doubtless familiar with the importance of the Black Panther Party in catalyzing and organizing the social and political ferment in the nation's black communities in the '60's, and with the controversies surround in a the Party's open advocacy of armed self-defense, its acceptance of violent resistance, and its high-powered individual leaders, like Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Fred Hampton, Angela Davis, George Jackson, and the discredited Eldridge Cleaver.

While the Panthers minced no words about their attitudes toward the power structure and how it should be dealt with, most of their energies were spent in quieter ways, organizing poor blacks in communities throughout the country to implement "survival programs" like free breakfasts for schoolchildren.

The Panthers' inflammatory rhetoric, their rapidly-growing popular base of support, and the effectiveness of their programs-as well as their ability to attract moral and financial support from sympathetic whites-caused great concern in law-enforcement agencies, both federal and local, and made the BPP the focus of what is by now a well-documented campaign of coordinated and widespread harassment, repression, and disruption employing every tool in the police arsenal (legal or otherwise).

Several local Panther offices were engaged in murderous shoot-outs with police. Chicago Panther leader Fred Hampton was drugged and murdered in his sleep during a police raid. The FBI, as part of its infamous COINTELPRO operation, set black nationalist groups in California against the Panthers, resulting in the deaths of several BPP members. Panther leaders across the country were dragged into court on one charge after another, draining the Party's coffers and its energies in extended legal proceedings.

After a few years of this, Panther leadership found that their local chapters were so riddled with informers and so poorly organized that the only way to save the Party was to pull back to its original base in Oakland, cease recruiting new members, and begin the task of evaluating the experience of the 60's and planning a workable strategy for the present decade.

The Party had almost been destroyed by concerted government efforts and its own mistakes. The black communities where mass rallies had been held were quiet. Over thirty Panthers were dead, and many more were in jail or in legal trouble.

It fell to David DuBois, stepson of legendary black Marxist W.E.B. DuBois, to coordinate the reorganization of the Party from its Oakland headquarters.

DuBois has quietly brought the Party into a new period of its development, concentrating on building a strong local base in the Oakland community, redefining its principies and strategies, and formulating a long-term approach to the liberation of black people in the United States.

DuBois, who acts as Editor of the BPP's national weekly, The Black Panther (which has never missed an issue, despite the extreme hardships the Party has undergone), shuns the flamboyant public style of many previous Panther spokespersons for an almost professorial dignity-without rhetoric or venom, he communicates an obvious intensity, commitment, and principle.

In addition to his duties as chief spokesperson for the Party and with the newspaper, DuBois, a resident of Egypt for several years, also recently published his first novel,...And Bid Him Sing (Ramparts Press), based on the lives of Afro-American exies in Egypt.

The SU 's Michael Castleman interviewed DuBois in December at the Party's Oakland headquarters.)

SUN: There has been so little news of the Black Panther Party recently that many people have wondered whether or not the Party still exists.

DuBois: The Party s very much alive and has maintained itself nationally. The period of intense repression forced us to regroup, to purge the Party of misleadership, which entailed closing some chapters and reestablishing the base in Oakland-which we have accomplished, and where we have scored significant successes over the last two years.

With regard to our lack of news coverage, we have concentrated on sinking deep roots into the community. These activities are not sensational, therefore they are not deemed newsworthy. Furthermore, if news of our recent work were presented honestly in the press, it would prove very impressive to many people and would tend to contradict the old image of the Party.

But we are functioning and growing-we're receive mail from all over the country from people who would like to join or start chapters.

SUN: The Black Panther Party was a particular target of the FBI's COINTELPRO. The media asserts that this program was discontinued several years ago. What has been the Party's recent experience with this kind of repression?

DuBois: These activities have not ceased. In fact, there has been continuing surveillance of Party members and associates: direct surveillance and interviews with landlords. The Internal Revenue Service launched an extensive campaign to obtain the Party's bank records, members' bank records, and particularly the bank records of contributors to the Party'. This information has been used by the IRS and FBI to harrass and intimidate members and friends of the Party.

Furthermore, we have been continually harrassed by local police for no reason, except to disrupt and discredit our work. For example, this is typical: members who work in a voluntary solicitation program for our Sickie Cell Anemia Testing and Research Program have been harrassed and arrested every day. They are held by police, sometimes overnight, and intimidated. Then, of course, they are released without being charged, because no charge could possibly stand up in court. This type of police behavior forces the Party to divert its limited resources toward legal defense.

The clearest indication of the continuation of COINTELPRO has been the attempt last year to set up and frame the Party's leader, Huey P. Newton, on a charge of murder, to imprison him, and, once there, we believe, to murder him.

SUN: Would you elaborate on this, and talk about where Huey P. Newton is now and his current relationship to the Party?

DuBois: Huey had an altercation with a person who preferred charges against him. The Black Panther Party's attorney, Charles Garry, has had an agreement with the Oakland Police for several years that if a warrant is issued on any Party member, the police need only to contact Mr. Garry and he will make that member available. This agreement was an attempt to avoid situations where, on the pretext of serving a warrant, police have broken into and provoked shoot-outs at Party facilities.

Instead of following this mutually agreed-upon procedure, the Oakland Police, in (unction with the Federal Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Agency, broke into Huey Newton's apartment while he was out and held it for eight hours before they would let anyone enter, including a lawyer. They ransacked it and seized all files and papers. Four days later, the police announced the discovery of alleged evidence linking Huey Newton to an assault on a young woman eight days prior to the day they ransacked his home. The woman subsequently died, and Huey was charged with murder.

The obvious conclusion is that police planted the alleged evidence. Huey Newton had no association with this woman whatsoever. The Party is very familiar with this type of police effort, and given its probable conclusion, the murder of Huey P. Newton in prison, he chose not to stand for the arraignment. We still do not know what the alleged evidence was-the police have refused to release it.

As for Huey Newton's whereabouts, it is generally believed that he is in Cuba. We are in contact with him; he remains the leader and chief theoretician of the Party. In his absence, day-to-day leadership is provided by an Executive Committee chaired by Elaine Brown.

SUN: Could you discuss the Party's current strategy, particularly its experiences in electoral politics?

DuBois: Our current strategy flows directly from the original vision of the Party. During the period of intense repression and mis-leadership of the Party, there was a distortion of the ideology and methodology, which we have since corrected. Our strategy entails the initiation and promotion in the oppressed communities- particularly the black community-of survival programs to provide, for free, those services which are basic to survival: food, health care, etc. We organize people to implement these programs, on the principle that these programs will become institutions run by and for the community. Simultaneously, in implementing these programs, we bring people into contact with the representatives of the power structure and permit people to grow conscious of the power structure's fundamental failure to meet their needs.

As people understand the failure of elected officials, we believe, they will bring forth leaders distinct from those who serve the power structure to become people's representatives, and begin to turn over control of the community's institutions to the people.

Bobby Seale's election campaign had a specific strategie function. Initially, the Black Panther Party approached progressive black and Third World Organizations with a proposal to unite around mutually acceptable candidates for office. These groups rejected our proposal, saying that they wanted nothing to do with the Black Panther Party. So it became incumbent on the Party to proceed with ts own electoral campaign to demonstrate once and for all the poltical clout of the Party throughout the base community in Oakland.

The campaign was a tremendous success. VVhile Bobby Seale did not win for Mayor, he forced the incumbent into a run-off where he achieved 43 percent of the vote. Clearly, the Black Panther Party is a potent political force which representsa large proportion of the community.

SUN: Do you know of any evidence to suggest that the power structure attempted to

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"The power structure is not as concerned about political leadership in the cities as it s about economic control, and it is moving to tighten its economic grip on the great urban areas. This is what is happening in New York, and I believe Detroit is earmarked for this process also." 

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sabotage the campaign?

DuBois: Yes, a great deal of evidence. Most strikingly, immediately prior to the election, police raided a Party office where campaign records were kept. The pretext, as usual, was a search for an individual on whom there was a warrant. Police broke in, arrested everyone there, and seized the campaign records. The nextday, there were false reports in the press that guns had been found in the office. The police supplied photographs to the press, which we can demonstrate were taken several years earlier, solely to disrupt Bobby Seale's election campaign. Of course, no charges were filed, everyone was released, but the records were never returned. Also, throughout the campaign, the FBI and IRS harrassed our contributors.

SUN: You lived in Africa for thirteen years, from 1960 to '72. Could you share your perspective on African liberation and on the U.S. role in Africa?

Dubois: Primarily I was a journalist, based in Cairo, but I traveled throughout Africa. Most national liberation organizations in the then still-colonialized areas had offices in Cairo. I enjoyed close ships with many of their key leaders, several of whom are now heads of state or officials in the independent nations. I was also involved in the creation of the Organization of African Unity.

From these experiences, I can say that the movement toward socialism is the dominant political movement, that the idea of a United States of Africa is also important, and that monopoly capitalist interests n the U.S. and Europe are extremely threatened by these two elements.

I believe there is a grave danger of the emergence of a Vietnam-style situation on the continent of Africa. More than a grave danger, I feel that U.S. military intervention in Africa is inevitable.

The propaganda distributed to the American people clearly indicates a campaign to justify American military involvement n Angola. Already American and European mercenaries are being recruited to fight the Marxist MPLA. In Congress there is a frantic effort to dispatch sophisticated war materiel to Angola. Then, as in the case of Vietnam, we will have to send "civilian technicians" to teach the use of this equipment, and after some of these people get killed, we will send troops on the pretext of protecting American lives. The CIA is supplying weapons to the FNLA and UNITA through Zaire, whose President Mobutu the CIA helped install. The American people know nothing of Africa except what the media tells them. 99 per cent of that information is false, and 100 per cent of it is geared toward convincing the American people of the need to fight communism in Africa.

SUN: Are you saying that Angola will be the African Vietnam?

DuBois: There is every reason to believe it will be, but beyond a certain point I would not venture a prediction. Rhodesia and South Africa are equally likely places. Suffice it to say that I believe American military intervention in Africa is inevitable.

SUN: What are your thoughts on the trend toward black mayors in major cities?

DuBois: Black and Third World political leadership in cities is an evitability which the power structure-the banks and giant corporations-have long understood. But the power structure s not as concerned about political leadership as it is about economic control, and it is moving to tighten its economic grip on the great urban areas. The power structure has contributed to the situation where cities are no longer economically viable-white residents and power structure-controlled industries have fled the cities and caused situations where city administrations, particularly black administrations, cannot manage city affairs.

At this point, the power structure moves to turn over economic control to corporate committees to cement its control of revenues and spending. Then the political leadership, whatever its color, has no real say. These committees may have black and brown people on them, but their perspective would have to be a power structure perspective. This is what is happening n New York, and I believe Detroit is earmarked for this process also.

SUN: Given the problems the Black Panther Party has had with police, what is your perspective on attempts to recruit black police officers?

DuBois: The Black Panther Party emerged as a self-defense force to counter unbelievable police brutality in the Black community. lts first major activity focused on patrolling police to oppose their routine violation of black people's Constitutional rights. At that time there were two Black officers on the Oakland force.

To this day 70 per cent of Oakland police live outside of Oakland- 70 per cent. But today, there are 87 black police on the force, and there is a Black Police Officers' Association which is working in coalition with the Black Panther Party, churches, and black professional organizations to rid the police department of its racism toward black officers and to improve police relations with the black community. This is not to argue that every individual black officer would identify with the objectives of the Black Panther Party. But it suggests a greater potential for progressive community work f the police reflect the ethnic composition of the community they serve. If police come from the community in which they work, there is a decreased chance of the power structure using the police against the community.

SUN : Two bits of information have surfaced in the media which touch on the Party: the announcement that Bobby Seale is no longer a member, and the return of Eldridge Cleaver. Do you have any comments about these two people?

DuBois: We have minimal concern about the return of Eldridge Cleaver. He was expelled from the Party four years ago, and we have had no contact with him since. We do hope he receives justice, but we are doubtful that this is possible in the courts of this land.

Bobby Seale has not been a member of the Party for over a year. We have no contact with him. We no longer discuss intraParty affairs publicly, because in the past, our statements about individuals in the Party have been used by the power structure to disrupt our work. We understand that Bobby Seale is in Los Angeles, attempting to pursue an acting career.

In the final analysis, the Party's success is not dependent on the presence or absence of any individual member, but on its work in the community.

(Note: Since this interview was conducted, of course, the Popular Movement for the Liberation of Angola (MPLA), with Russian and Cuban support, has defeated the two factions aided by the U.S., Western Europe, and South Africa, and has been recognized as the legitimate government of Angola by the Organization of African Unity and numerous other governments, including many in Western Europe.)

Michael Castleman is a Contributing Editor to the SUN.