AACHM Oral History: Carl James Johnson

Thu, 07/13/2023 - 1:57pm

When: July 13, 2023

Carl James Johnson was born in 1945 in Willow Run, Michigan. His family moved to Ann Arbor when he was seven years old, after his mother suffered a stroke. He attended Jones School and Tappan Junior High and participated in the French Dukes drill team in the early 1960s. Johnson served in Vietnam in the Navy Seabees unit, where his drill experience spared him from direct action. For most of his career he worked as a caterer at the University of Michigan and Domino Farms. He celebrates his Black and Native American heritage by volunteering on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation.

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Transcript

• [00:00:17] JOYCE HUNTER: [MUSIC] Carl, We're going to start with part 1, demographics and family history. I'm first going to ask you some simple demographic questions. These questions may jog your memories, but please keep your answers brief and to the point for now, we can go into more detail later in the interview. First, please say and spell your name.
• [00:00:43] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Carl James Johnson, C-A-R-L J-O-H-N-S-O-N.
• [00:00:51] JOYCE HUNTER: What is your date of birth including the year?
• [00:00:54] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: 10.8.45.
• [00:00:59] JOYCE HUNTER: How would you describe your ethnic background?
• [00:01:03] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I call myself the Neapolitan Indian. I am Indian, I'm Black and I'm white.
• [00:01:09] JOYCE HUNTER: Neapolitan. Okay. I like that. What is your religion, if any?
• [00:01:21] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: That's a good question.
• [00:01:31] JOYCE HUNTER: We'll come back to that as you'd like.
• [00:01:33] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: So complicated now. Thank you. Yeah, we'll come back.
• [00:01:39] JOYCE HUNTER: What is the highest level of formal education you have completed?
• [00:01:43] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: 12th grade Ann Arbor High, '64.
• [00:01:49] JOYCE HUNTER: Did you have any additional career training beyond that?
• [00:01:55] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I was in the Navy and went to plumbing school, which I never participated in.
• [00:02:05] JOYCE HUNTER: What is your marital status?
• [00:02:08] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I am married going on 12, 13 years now.
• [00:02:14] JOYCE HUNTER: Very good. How many children do you have?
• [00:02:17] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I have four. I have five altogether. One passed away. Three boys and two girls.
• [00:02:27] JOYCE HUNTER: What are their names?
• [00:02:29] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Randy James Johnson, Wayne James Johnson, Jermaine James Johnson, and the girls are Jessica Johnson and Amanda.
• [00:02:43] JOYCE HUNTER: So that's three boys and two girls?
• [00:02:47] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Correct.
• [00:02:49] JOYCE HUNTER: All right. How many siblings do you have?
• [00:02:53] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I had four. I have a twin brother, two older brothers, and an older sister. Their names are--Danny is the oldest, Beverly is the oldest sister, and Dennis and Earl are my brothers.
• [00:03:15] JOYCE HUNTER: Which one is your twin?
• [00:03:16] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Earl is my twin.
• [00:03:18] JOYCE HUNTER: Are you identical or fraternal?
• [00:03:20] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Fraternal.
• [00:03:21] JOYCE HUNTER: Fraternal okay. What was your primary occupation?
• [00:03:31] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I'd have to say caterer. I worked with juvenile delinquents out at Maxey, I guess I consider myself just interested in doing a lot of different things.
• [00:03:50] JOYCE HUNTER: About many how many years did you do catering?
• [00:03:54] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I started catering at the University in 1964. I ended up at the Domino Farms with Katherine's Catering, 2015.
• [00:04:16] JOYCE HUNTER: So you must do a lot of good cooking around the house.
• [00:04:19] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I do no cooking. I just do all the service and set up the tables for display and make sure that everything is going smoothly.
• [00:04:30] JOYCE HUNTER: That's important. At what age did you retire if you're retired?
• [00:04:38] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I retired when I was 75.
• [00:04:47] JOYCE HUNTER: We're going to move now to part 2, memories of childhood and youth. This part of the interview is about your childhood and youth. Even if these questions jog memories about other times in your life, please only respond with memories for this part of your life. What was your family life when you were a child?
• [00:05:09] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: When you say my life as between what age?
• [00:05:17] JOYCE HUNTER: Elementary age up.
• [00:05:25] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I remember Tappan very well. Tappan Junior High School, I had a lot of fun there. We did a lot of different activities. I learned to swim. Elementary school I went to Jones. Well, she says when it pertains to now? I'm sorry, I'm being a little bizarre here. I grew up in Willow Run. We came to Ann Arbor when I was seven.
• [00:06:12] JOYCE HUNTER: Whatever you want to share is fine, you can go from there up. This is your interview. So let's go.
• [00:06:20] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Growing up I remember going to the Island Park, Riverside Park, all the parks in the neighborhood. Summit Park having playing baseball, ice skating. It was mixed. It was very mixed it with white and Black.
• [00:06:44] JOYCE HUNTER: Think of something else, you can add onto it. In terms of your family, that sounds like some things you did with friends, what kinds of activities did you do with your family?
• [00:06:56] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: We would go to Canada with my family. Freedom Day parades, Buxton, Canada. We'd go roller skating in Toronto, Windsor. I had a very nice childhood. My mother had a stroke when I was seven. That's why we moved to Ann Arbor. We moved right down by St. Joe Hospital, which is on Glen Street, 311 Glen, kitty-corner from Angelo's.
• [00:07:43] JOYCE HUNTER: When you moved to Ann Arbor, was that because of the hospital when your mother had a stroke or what was the reason for that?
• [00:07:52] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: My father believed in education and it was closer to her and the doctor. He always liked Ann Arbor because of the college.
• [00:08:02] JOYCE HUNTER: Great. Speaking of your family, were there any special days or events or family traditions you remember from your childhood? Did your family do something special in terms of special days?
• [00:08:18] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Special days was basically getting in the car, going down Michigan Avenue to Detroit, visiting with my cousins, going to Belle Isle, Boblo Boat. Again, a lot of time in Canada. My mother's family is from Canada.
• [00:08:41] JOYCE HUNTER: I was going to ask you about that. Do you still have relatives you're in contact with in Canada?
• [00:08:51] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: No. Actually, they moved to Florida.
• [00:08:54] JOYCE HUNTER: Okay. Lot of people go to Florida. Which holidays does your family celebrate?
• [00:09:05] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: We celebrate all of them. Christmas was a fun time to my parents will wait till the last minute to go buy the tree and then we would put the tree up and decorate it, and then we would go to bed.
• [00:09:26] JOYCE HUNTER: Now, is there a special reason why they waited to the last minute?
• [00:09:31] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: That's a good question. They just seemed to be the thing they do. It's fun to wait. All of us would get together at the last minute before you went to bed and decorated a tree. That when you woke up, we never turned on the lights until the next morning, we just decorated.
• [00:09:54] JOYCE HUNTER: Did the whole family go out and select the tree or just your parents?
• [00:09:58] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Just my parents. Basically my mother and father will go out. My father would, every now and then he would go to Sear's and buy an already made tree, it was already tinseled. That was fun too to see him coming home with a tree it was already--
• [00:10:21] JOYCE HUNTER: Decorated. That was kind of an easy way to go. In addition to Christmas and the traditional holiday, has your family or did your family create its own traditions and celebrations? Is there anything else that they celebrated? They created.
• [00:10:47] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: No my father worked a lot and us taking care of my mother. Just didn't allow as much time to do much of anything else.
• [00:11:08] JOYCE HUNTER: Speaking of your father working a lot. What type of work did your father do?
• [00:11:13] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: My father was a construction foreman for Barton Marlow. He built a hospital, the Veterans Hospital, Glacier Hills. He was responsible for Glacier Hills. I can't remember the other couple of other places in Ann Arbor for the university. I think the grad school building, who went on a lot of little construction in Ann Arbor.
• [00:11:57] JOYCE HUNTER: Those are big project.
• [00:11:58] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Yes, I know he was a surveyor. He knew how to survey. Just like I said, he was a real good foreman for Barton Marlow and they treated him really good. But he didn't want us to go into the construction field and he wanted us to get an education.
• [00:12:27] JOYCE HUNTER: Prior to your mother having a stroke, did she work outside the home or she just worked in the home?
• [00:12:34] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: She just worked in the home.
• [00:12:37] JOYCE HUNTER: That's a big job, working in home.
• [00:12:40] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Let's say with twins and two other kids.
• [00:12:49] JOYCE HUNTER: Let me go back to your schooling. Did you play any sports or join any other activities outside the school?
• [00:12:57] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I played football, I played basketball, I ran track, I was just an average athlete and I didn't do anything spectacular.
• [00:13:13] JOYCE HUNTER: But as you played all through those, don't they refer to that as a triple threat?
• [00:13:17] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Yeah.
• [00:13:20] JOYCE HUNTER: That's what I heard anyway. What about your school experience that you had is different from school as you know it today?
• [00:13:40] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I didn't do very well in school. I had perfect attendance. I wasn't disruptive. I had dyslexia, but I didn't find that out until after I joined the military. School was a place to socialize with people of all colors. That's when I enjoyed the most, it was such a variety when I grew up in Willow Run it was only Blacks . Then when then when I came to Ann Arbor it was quite a diversity of people which really I enjoyed seeing different ethnic groups.
• [00:14:31] JOYCE HUNTER: I know you mentioned earlier Jones School, I don't know if you're aware of the fact that they're not doing a documentary on Jones school. Were you aware that they're doing a documentary on Jones School?
• [00:14:46] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Yes, ma'am. I have one of the pamphlets that shows the French Dukes in front of the old Jones School.
• [00:15:00] JOYCE HUNTER: Were you part of the French Duke's?
• [00:15:02] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Yeah. I was there for like maybe two years. Early 60s.
• [00:15:11] JOYCE HUNTER: Tell us about the French Dukes. If somebody is listening to this interview, they might not even know what French Dukes are or were. Talk to us something about the French Dukes.
• [00:15:25] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: My older brother Dennis and Billy Jackson and Bo Deck and a bunch of others. Michael Jackson got together. When he came out of the military, he knew these marching steps to keep the kids out of trouble. We would get together down in high school and practice marching and just talking about life. It was a very good experience. We got to travel, we got to go to Canada, we got to go to Boston. We participated in parades. Another good thing about what French Dukes is, uh, later on in life, it helped me get out of Vietnam early because I knew drill steps. And they were looking for people who could perform drill team for the Navy and it helped me get of Vietnam six months or less.
• [00:16:31] JOYCE HUNTER: Interesting, Carl. That was very interesting in that you are able to get out of Vietnam in terms of drills because the Navy had drill teams?
• [00:16:44] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I was attached to the Seabees, which is part of the Navy. I mean all the branches had drill teams where you throw the rifles and spin on marching parade. I mean, I was in probably every parade from west of the Mississippi to California.
• [00:17:04] JOYCE HUNTER: This wonderful. It seems like it's still a little emotional for you, isn't? That's okay if it is. I'm really interested in this. I hope you have some pictures that we can add to our digital collection. Have you one or two pictures or one picture that you participating in the drill, the French Dukes or the drills when you are in the service. Do you still have some?
• [00:17:34] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I have quite a few pictures and I gave the lady who did the French Duke book.
• [00:17:43] JOYCE HUNTER: Oh yeah, Debby.
• [00:17:44] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Debby, I gave her a couple of pictures which I would really like back.
• [00:17:49] JOYCE HUNTER: She should have been able to scan those and give them back to you.
• [00:17:52] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: She was in a hurry that day and the people who were at the library said that they were going to do it and get back and they never got back to us.
• [00:18:02] JOYCE HUNTER: This team we're working with now for the Living Oral Histories, they certainly will do that. They scan them, use them and then get them back to you. You don't have to worry about that. If you have some to share, we will certainly take those and we want it to be part of the digital collection. Thank you for sharing that. I'm going to go back to some of the questions here. Were there any changes in your family during family life, during your school years? I know you mentioned your mother had a stroke. You want to share any more about that or you have additional changes that happened during your school years, changes in your family during your school years?
• [00:18:47] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Yeah. I couldn't participate in a lot of activities because of my mother. I had to come home and take care of her. She had her stroke. The families I don't know they started doing their own thing. My twin brother was in the cooking and my older brother was in the physical therapy and they sort of went off to their own little world. I wouldn't say there was any big dynamic change.
• [00:19:31] JOYCE HUNTER: Was your mother's stroke was a big change?
• [00:19:34] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: My mother's stroke was a big change. Growing up, she took us everywhere. She took us to the dentist, she took us to the doctor. She helped us. We knew our alphabet, we knew our address, we could read and write before we went to school. She was really a wonderful mother as she just taught us anything about growing up. Then when she had her stroke, everything changed.
• [00:20:13] JOYCE HUNTER: That's hard. But it's great that you have those memories prior to her stroke, the things that she did for you. That's really special.
• [00:20:22] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: She played piano up in Idlewild.
• [00:20:28] JOYCE HUNTER: Let me ask you this about your school years too. There was a big change but you didn't find out dyslexia until you were -- you said high school or the service.
• [00:20:39] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: The military yes, until I was in a [OVERLAPPING]. But like I said, I loved school. I didn't do very well, but like I said, I had perfect attendance, and I was just in the shadows.
• [00:20:54] JOYCE HUNTER: That's probably because of your dyslexia. How did they discover that in the service?
• [00:21:02] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: When I applied for a civil service job, during the civil service jobs for some reason it was detected.
• [00:21:19] JOYCE HUNTER: That definitely has an impact on your learning. They found that that was better late than never but they discovered during your high school, your younger years as well.
• [00:21:32] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I think since we were as just didn't get it into trouble in which is such a good caring person at school, I just slid under the radar. Due to the school itself, I think me being me and not letting it affect me. I don't think.
• [00:22:00] JOYCE HUNTER: Probably you did not get into any trouble, just doing what you were told. You said they just use it right on through. Moving to another question about your school years, what important social or historical events were taking place at that time?
• [00:22:21] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Wow. That's a good question. I think it was in '63, I'm not quite sure, it could have been earlier. Martin Luther King came to the Power Center. My father made us go up there, me and my twin brother, and it was one of the best things that ever happened. But then afterwards, there was a bunch of Black Panthers handing out brochures, and I got involved in the Black Panthers. But the Black Panthers as well is a good organization. We were feeding, trying to feed kids, and give kids shoes. I think I am done.
• [00:23:15] JOYCE HUNTER: Let me ask you this. It was a good experience, and because of the work they were doing out in the community, is that what you felt it was really good because of that?
• [00:23:28] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Yeah. Martin King didn't really approve of them. My father really adored that man.
• [00:23:44] JOYCE HUNTER: Let me ask you this, we'II move on. You've had a chance to see Dr. King. Were there any opportunities, probably not for picture taking, of him or with him?
• [00:23:57] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: The other girls went up there and the guys went outside. It wasn't as important at the time or was something we were made to do. Like I said, I was more interested in the Black Panthers.
• [00:24:16] JOYCE HUNTER: That's fine. You said all the girls went up, but the guys went outside? They wanted to get a little bit closer up and talk to him, I guess. I'm going to go ask you additional questions. When you were growing up, you already mentioned your school, and you werer going to Jones Elementary. Was that integrated or segregated?
• [00:24:50] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: It was a mixture. It wasn't that many white kids, but there were some. But it was primarily all Black.
• [00:25:00] JOYCE HUNTER: Then there was a question about high school. But you say you went to Ann Arbor High?
• [00:25:07] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I went to Tappan and then Ann Arbor High.
• [00:25:11] JOYCE HUNTER: Let's talk a little bit about Tappan. You said you had some really good experiences at Tappan?
• [00:25:15] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Tappan, I got involved with the Native American Indian. The Boy Scouts did a jamboree, and they brought in a bunch of Native Americans, and putting up a tent, a teepee, and that's when I got involved and was talking to my mother about our Canadian heritage and about being Native American. I related to being Tonto. I stood as a lone ranger. I was always for the Indian. Then I started going to powwows, or gatherings way back.
• [00:26:00] JOYCE HUNTER: How did that impact you, going to the powwows and gatherings?
• [00:26:07] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Well, it affected me because of the cruelty that we did to the Native Americans. This is their country and we just took it from them. What can you say?
• [00:26:29] JOYCE HUNTER: Are you still in contact with some of the individuals that you know?
• [00:26:35] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Yeah. I go to South Dakota to the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation quite a bit.
• [00:26:44] JOYCE HUNTER: Tell me about that. What does that likely to go?
• [00:26:48] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: We go to the reservation. We go make bunk beds, we make porta-potties, we do whatever they need. It's a food desert, and so we started hoop houses to make food. The founder of it is, if it's broken, we fix it, and we were trying to fix the broken system with the Native Americans to try to help them in a way that they need help, not the way that we think they need help, but the way they need help.
• [00:27:21] JOYCE HUNTER: And asking them what it is they need rather than telling them what they need. Is that right?
• [00:27:26] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: True. Correct.
• [00:27:28] JOYCE HUNTER: Tell me a little bit about the food. What did you refer to, the hoop houses? What is that again?
• [00:27:32] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Hoop houses in South Dakota, then you know the weather is so bad. We got these hoop houses so they could start growing their foods much earlier so they can have good healthy food, cucumbers, corn, tomatoes. It's amazing what they don't have on the reservation, and it's just amazing. It's a third-world country here in America.
• [00:28:02] JOYCE HUNTER: How often, or what age did you start going to the powwows and then started going to North Dakota?
• [00:28:10] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I started going to the powwows when I was in 9th grade. It's 8th grade. I went to my first one, but I got involved when I was nine in which I participated in selling tickets, and helping the Natives set up, and just helping out, just being a general helper of whatever they needed to get the powwows going. [OVERLAPPING]
• [00:28:44] JOYCE HUNTER: Go ahead.
• [00:28:46] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: The last one was before COVID. It's just Skyline High School now which is an incredible place to see it, because it's around gyms, around building, and it really does the Native Americans proud to be in there.
• [00:29:06] JOYCE HUNTER: Tell me how it is displayed or set up at Skyline.
• [00:29:11] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Well, it's in the gym but the building itself is round. Because of that, it's good spiritual bringing, because it involve their teepees in there. They believe in a round circle. In effect, this is a Native American medicine wheel. Every race correlates to one of these colors, as the four seasons and the four directions. Each color means something like humility, honor, obey your elders. Out of 575 different Native American bands, all of them believe in the medicine wheel.
• [00:30:00] JOYCE HUNTER: You get a medicine wheel by participating, or how does it happen?
• [00:30:05] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Well, no. It's dependent. Medicine doesn't have to do with participation. It's just their spiritual beliefs. I don't know if I am being clear.
• [00:30:23] JOYCE HUNTER: You are. I'm understanding what you're saying.
• [00:30:27] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I beg your pardon.
• [00:30:28] JOYCE HUNTER: I said I understand what you're saying. It's clear to me. Well, that's really interesting. When you say you got started when you were nine, that takes me back to just high school in Ann Arbor, and there's questions here about teachers.
• [00:30:52] JOYCE HUNTER: Elementary, middle, and high school, did you have Black teachers? Did you have a mix of teachers?
• [00:30:58] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I had no Black teachers at all. All through, even high school had never had a Black teacher. I knew some Black teachers as far as being in their class, it wasn't added as fortunately this average.
• [00:31:23] JOYCE HUNTER: I do want to ask you about going from school to community in terms of restaurants or eating places for Blacks. Were there any that you and your family went out to eat at restaurants?
• [00:31:36] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Well, we grew up kitty-corner from Angelo's. Krazy Jim's used to be on the industry, which my mother's favorite little spot it's [OVERLAPPING]
• [00:31:54] JOYCE HUNTER: You don't remember the name, that's fine.
• [00:32:02] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Well, it was Krazy Jim's and what is it now? Blimpy Burgers. Blimpy Burgers used to be Krazy Jim's on Ann Street and then they moved. We would go up there as a family and have burgers and french fries. Was no restaurant we could not go into, I think because were light skin. I think that helped us go anywhere we wanted to. We went to Everett's Big Boys. I have no bad feelings about growing up Black in Ann Arbor. I accept it dealing with my people, I was too white to be Black and too Black to be white, but I enjoyed growing up in Ann Arbor.
• [00:33:11] JOYCE HUNTER: You often hear about the whole colored thing. I think Spike Lee acted a movie about that at one point, I don't know if you saw that about the colors within the Black community.
• [00:33:26] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: About hair and different.
• [00:33:32] JOYCE HUNTER: Right. I'm going to move to Part 3, which is adulthood, marriage, and family life. After you finished high school, where did you live?
• [00:33:44] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: High school I moved to Summit Street in Ann Arbor somewhere and Spring, I think it was some corner somewhere in the Spring. Then from there I got drafted into the military. Excuse me. I'm rambling.
• [00:34:31] JOYCE HUNTER: You say you went to Summit Street after high school? [OVERLAPPING]
• [00:34:36] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: After my parents sold the house on Glen because of the renovation of the road, I went to Summit Street. Then from Summit, I lived there for about a year and a half with three or four guys. We had our own room. It was really nice. It was not too far from the Summit Medical Center. Then I moved out to South Lyon Salem with my sister. Then I got in the military and then went to California.
• [00:35:11] JOYCE HUNTER: Tell me a little bit about getting in the military. That's just a decision you decided or was [OVERLAPPING].
• [00:35:19] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: No. As a matter of fact, I left and went to Canada because I didn't want to go into the military. I didn't believe in war, didn't have. I went to Canada, but I loved America. So I said, Why am I leaving America? I've just come back home. So I came back home and I got drafted. And instead of going into the army, I enlisted into the Navy so I could get some education, some schooling and they gave it to me, plumbing, school electrician school.
• [00:36:03] JOYCE HUNTER: The Navy is where you participated and that you got the training you just mentioned. But you participated in their drill teams and that gave you a chance to experience other areas throughout the United States and outside the United States.
• [00:36:21] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Yeah, both outside the United States. I went to Guam, I went to Hawaii, I went to Vietnam. I probably went in every state in the United States if the military going to parades.
• [00:36:40] JOYCE HUNTER: That gave you a lot of exposure to the other cities or states in the United States and outside as well.
• [00:36:50] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Yeah.
• [00:36:52] JOYCE HUNTER: That's great. I'm going to go down and talk a little bit about married life. I'd like you to tell me about your married life and family life.
• [00:37:09] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Wow. That would take two books. I have married a few times.
• [00:37:14] JOYCE HUNTER: Tell me about the last one if you like, or whatever one you want to talk about.
• [00:37:21] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Well, the first one I have my kids by so I'll talk about her. My goodness, I don't think I could just talk about it. [LAUGHTER]
• [00:37:42] JOYCE HUNTER: That's fine. Your first wife you had your children by, is that right?
• [00:37:48] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Yes. Pat Bryant from South Lyon.
• [00:37:57] JOYCE HUNTER: That's fine if you don't want to go into that. But you got five wonderful children, right?
• [00:38:03] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Correct. Four by one mother and one by another.
• [00:38:07] JOYCE HUNTER: Well, that's -- children are blessings.
• [00:38:09] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Yes, they are.
• [00:38:13] JOYCE HUNTER: We'll move from there and to work and retirement. We have already talked about your main field of employment and you already said that was catering.
• [00:38:29] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: That was at the Michigan League, I used to work for a lady named Wilma Steckedy. It was just nice and it was a fun place to work. Got to meet a lot of different people. I met Bo Schembechler, the basketball team, the Fab Five. I catered for the Fab Five. I've catered for four Presidents, Ford, Carter, Nixon, Duderstadt for the University of Michigan. Tom Monaghan. I used to do the owners box for Tom Monaghan. Doing catering for Katherine's catering when it was located out in Dominos Farms. I catered for the Dalai Lama, which was really special. He just made me feel very comfortable and relaxed. I felt more human after meeting the Dalai Lama.
• [00:39:43] JOYCE HUNTER: Well, you're quite experienced in catering. Some of the people you named, you named, was it three presidents of four? Tell me the four Presidents you catered for again?
• [00:39:52] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Ford, Carter, and Nixon, they all came to the University of Michigan for a summit, and then I got to cater their breakfast for him, when Duderstadt was President for the University of Michigan.
• [00:40:10] JOYCE HUNTER: So how was that interacting with the Presidents?
• [00:40:15] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I didn't really interact with them. But Duderstadt the president of the University was a very kind person, very helpful, I felt like a family not just a hire. Then like I said, Bo Schembechler called me the big left-hander because I served from the left. I have met a lot of nice interesting people.
• [00:40:52] JOYCE HUNTER: That's great. So he said the Big Left-hander? I don't know much about catering, so serving from the left is not what you normally do?
• [00:40:58] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: You can serve from the right and you clear from the left. But when he see my hand, it was so big. He may question and he asked me, can you play football? I said yeah, but I can run but I can't catch. But you had to be there. [LAUGHTER]
• [00:41:17] JOYCE HUNTER: Great. Interesting story, though. I'm enjoying hearing them. What is the biggest difference in the field of catering, now, from the time you started until now? What's different about that field now? Are there any differences? What are the differences?
• [00:41:38] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Goodness gracious. I don't think there's much difference because it's just service, service, service. As long as you have good food, that's the bottom line. You give good service with good food, you can't go wrong.
• [00:41:55] JOYCE HUNTER: Great.
• [00:41:55] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: [OVERLAPPING].
• [00:41:55] JOYCE HUNTER: I'm sorry, go ahead.
• [00:41:55] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I'm going to say as I worked at Maxey too I enjoy being a youth specialist, working with juvenile delinquency. I worked out there at Maxey for seven years. I implemented a program called PPC, Positive Peer Culture with Tom [?], which was another very enlightening experience of positivity. Working in a program called PPC, Positive Peer Culture with juvenile delinquents down at Maxey.
• [00:42:32] JOYCE HUNTER: Now talking a little bit more about that in terms of how was that program set up and what did it involve in terms of what you gave to students or trained or taught students?
• [00:42:46] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Well, the average win level was third grade. Most of them had criminal records, 30, 40 pages long. If it wasn't for their age, they would be in prison. But instead, Maxey had a Center for wayward kids and they would send the kids here and hope to rehabilitate them with this program called Positive Peer Culture, where peer pressure of the group dealt with their problems. They had to deal with their own problems.
• [00:43:30] JOYCE HUNTER: And you were at Maxey how long?
• [00:43:32] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Seven to nine years, around that.
• [00:43:41] JOYCE HUNTER: That PPC, do you feel it really had a great impact on the students?
• [00:43:51] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: It had somewhat of an effect. I think the staff needed to be more trained a little bit better to implement more positive input set of such negative input. The staff would be more negative, which would defeat the purpose [LAUGHTER] of the program. Maxey used to be a lock-up turn-the-key, so when he went from a lock-up to PPC, which was Positive Peer Culture, it was a big change for the staff. They had to be kinder and more considerate which I enjoyed [LAUGHTER] It helped the kids in a positive way.
• [00:44:38] JOYCE HUNTER: In terms of the students at Maxey, was it a mixed group of students or just [OVERLAPPING]
• [00:44:44] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: It was mixed but I have to say it was more white kids than Black. That would be 75, 25 Black because it depends on your caseworker who the social worker who was involved. But we have mostly white kids.
• [00:45:12] JOYCE HUNTER: That's interesting.
• [00:45:13] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Yeah, it was.
• [00:45:18] JOYCE HUNTER: This is a semi-type question I asked you in terms of when you were high-school-aged, but when thinking back on your working adult life, what important social or historical events were taking place at that time and how did they personally affect you and your family?
• [00:45:38] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I think I mentioned Martin Luther King. I met the Dalai Lama.
• [00:45:46] JOYCE HUNTER: Was this your adult life?
• [00:45:49] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: As an adult?
• [00:45:50] JOYCE HUNTER: Right.
• [00:45:52] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I'm left with the question now. How did it affect my adult life?
• [00:46:00] JOYCE HUNTER: Let me repeat it. When thinking on your working adult life, what important social or historical events were taking place at that time and how did they personally affect you and your family?
• [00:46:16] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Well, the biggest thing was the Vietnam War.
• [00:46:25] JOYCE HUNTER: Did you go to Vietnam or are you just an in-service training?
• [00:46:29] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I went to Vietnam, and I was attached to Seabees, which is the mobile construction battalion. I was supposed to be there for eight months, come back for eight months, and go back again for eight months. But due to my experience being with the French Dukes, I was only there for six months and they let me come back. For the whole period of my military service, I stayed on the drill team. I was very fortunate, very fortunate not to go back.
• [00:47:04] JOYCE HUNTER: I'm glad to hear that you've got pictures and some things that we could use as part of this interview at the digital part of it in terms of that drill team. I've heard about the French Dukes. But what I'm really fascinated by is the fact that this really had an impact on your service while you were in the Navy. Was it the Navy?
• [00:47:26] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: In the Navy, correct.
• [00:47:29] JOYCE HUNTER: I'm glad to hear that you have some photos that we can actually include as part of this interview. Really excited about seeing those. I'm going to move down to part 5, which is really the last part. You kind of already talked about this, but we'll talk about a little bit more if you want to. Tell me how it has been for you to live in this community.
• [00:48:01] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Growing up in Ann Arbor, I've felt I have been blessed. We had a strong Black community with the Elks, even the Y helped out a lot.
• [00:48:29] JOYCE HUNTER: Talk to me about the Elks. They helped. How would that impact?
• [00:48:35] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: The Elks sponsored the French Dukes, which helped us go to Canada, which helped us go to Boston. We raised money for our uniforms. Just kept us out of trouble. Knowing you were a French Duke, everybody expected a little bit more.
• [00:49:00] JOYCE HUNTER: It's okay. [OVERLAPPING]
• [00:49:04] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: A little bit more for years to do the right thing. Do not get in trouble, help out your elders.
• [00:49:15] JOYCE HUNTER: Now the French Dukes, about how many people or men participated?
• [00:49:23] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I think there was like four rows and then there was five Dukes, at least 20-30, and there was more because a lot of them would practice, but then they weren't. I would say maybe at the most 30.
• [00:49:44] JOYCE HUNTER: They practiced, but they didn't reach the level that they needed to reach [OVERLAPPING]
• [00:49:48] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Yeah. They did the practice and interview. If your boots weren't shiny, if your uniform wasn't looking, you had to have a good appearance.
• [00:50:02] JOYCE HUNTER: That makes sense. Great. I'm going to next question. When thinking back over your entire life, what are you most proud of?
• [00:50:22] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I think my mom and dad, how they stuck together. How my father after my mother had her stroke, both mother and father didn't abandon the family, took good care of us, took good care of my mom at home. She had to be 82 years old when she was paralyzed on one side and her speech was impaired. The only people who could really understand it was my father and myself.
• [00:50:55] JOYCE HUNTER: Let me ask you this Carl, at what age did she have her stroke?
• [00:51:00] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: If I was seven, she had to be 30, 32 maybe. I'm not good at these things. Say 30, maybe middle 30s.
• [00:51:15] JOYCE HUNTER: For 50 years, your father was a caregiver along with yourself if she lived to 82. What a special opportunity and blessing to have to be able to help her that way for all that time. Go ahead, add anything else you want to add.
• [00:51:36] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I felt very lucky to have a father who was so dedicated to his family that he put his family before himself.
• [00:51:47] JOYCE HUNTER: Yeah, that was really a blessing. As you said, he stayed right there, he didn't leave. That's your blessing [OVERLAPPING] What would you say has changed the most from the time you were a young person to now?
• [00:52:07] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: What has changed? I think the only change people are exposed to more things than before. It used to be a kind of narrow viewpoint. You either lived in Ann Arbor or Ypsi and you never went to Canada or you never went to Ohio or you just stayed in your own little group. Now the world is a little smaller because you can travel and see different things. I think the exposure to seeing the Great Lakes as a young kid made me respect water and being a water conservationist because of all the clean water in our Great Lakes.
• [00:53:00] JOYCE HUNTER: The final question is, what advice would you give to the younger generation?
• [00:53:12] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: I would say get your bucket list done early, start off with going to the national parks, checking out Mother Nature, seeing what the world was like before man put his mark on the land. Seeing how beautiful Mother Earth and the oceans are, being respectful to Mother Nature, and making your carbon footprint a little smaller and don't be so wasteful.
• [00:53:53] JOYCE HUNTER: Well, that's some good advice. That was our last question, Carl. But I do want to give you a chance to say anything that you feel you didn't get a chance to share before we started recording. Anything, final things you want to share?
• [00:54:08] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Probably 100, but it will happen afterwards after I wake up from my nap. [LAUGHTER] It's been a pleasure and very enlightening to myself to think back about what my life was like with my family. Thank you.
• [00:54:31] JOYCE HUNTER: Yeah. I want to thank you for agreeing to do the interview. I thank you so very much for what you've shared. I know sometimes it was emotional for you, but you answered them, so thank you. I do have some things I'm going to share. Someone asked - oh the picture there.
• [00:54:49] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: That's me right there.
• [00:54:53] JOYCE HUNTER: Very good, wow. We'll have to get those to Heidi to scan.
• [00:55:00] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Also I was on TV in Hawaii.
• [00:55:02] JOYCE HUNTER: Wow.
• [00:55:05] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: That's my military uniform.
• [00:55:06] JOYCE HUNTER: A man in uniform. [LAUGHTER]
• [00:55:14] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: This is in Hawaii.
• [00:55:16] JOYCE HUNTER: You look so impressive. [BACKGROUND]
• [00:55:23] CARL JAMES JOHNSON: Yeah. I have to say the worst experience I ever had was when I came back from Vietnam, coming back to the airport in uniform, I was spit at, I was called all kinds of names. And if it wasn't for the Hare Krishna people who surrounded me and got me to my destination... That was I think the worst thing that I experienced from the military was the hatred when I came back.
• [00:56:03] JOYCE HUNTER: There was a lot of feelings about the Vietnam War that was passed onto the soldiers who were drafted and required to go. That's too bad that you had that experience and other people had similar type of experiences. But thank you for sharing that with us though.